Videos like this curdle my blood. I am so tired of people who criticize the war being labeled as unpatriotic. It was not our business to go into Iraq in the first place, under false and misleading/faulty intellligence, while taking our eye off of Bin Laden, who was supposed to be our real goal. I have every right and freedom to criticize the management and mismanagement of a misguided war, but that doesn’t mean I don’t support our troops, who voluntarily signed up for the war in the first place.
This video is not about the good we’ve done there. I will be the first to admit that after years of violence and bloodshed, things seem to be turning around and there have been a lot of great moments for our country and for theirs in recent times.
But this is clearly a video to make anyone who has questioned this war feel unpatriotic, like we don’t support the troops or mourn our own loss of life there. I mean come on, the guy even says if you consider the war a “mistake” then you disrespect all who fought and died — his comments are directed at Obama, but obviously meant for anyone who is watching the video as well. I respect everyone who made the decision to go over there and fight for us for whatever reason they saw fit, but I will not be called unamerican because I question the motives of why we were there in the first place.
No I don’t think Bush had evil intentions, but I do think we were so anxious to do *something* after 9/11 that we focused all of our energies on the wrong target. And that doesn’t mean we can’t question the decisions and intelligence of going in there. And questioning it doesn’t make one unamerican, I think it makes us very American because that shows we care about our military forces and don’t want to see them put forth in a war that possibly shouldn’t have been started for the reasons it was. I remember you even saying at one time that you would question the reasoning for us going in there the way we did with no real exit plans and whatnot.
Granted, we can’t do anything about it now, and we all need to determine the best strategy from here on out. But that doesn’t mean we can’t learn from the past and not be put in a situation like this again.
We can learn from our mistakes but do you believe pulling out of Iraq now is going do more good than not? Would pulling out be learning from our mistakes?
Well, that’s what can be debated. I think a timed, responsible withdrawl would be in our best interests, especially in light of the violence level going down.
But that is part of the questioning it in the first place, and learning from the past. Had we had better intelligence, better planning, situations like this would be less likely to happen, forcing us into a basically no-win stance. We can stay there forever while their government continues to flounder, or we can begin to pull out, not achieving what became our goal to leave them with a functioning government and stability.
But back to the original point, I will never question the heart of a soldier who decided to put his life on the line to fight for our country. However, I will question the decisions of the government and our leadership to begin this war in the first place without better planning. I mean, if you remember, we were so arrogant going in there, and we were taken by surprise by the resistance against us. So there’s a good chance a lot of these soldiers went over there not only thinking that it would be close to a cakewalk (“Marched down the street as liberators”), but also thought it wouldn’t last nearly as long as it has, as well as thinking Al Queda had a definate link to Iraq… which of course it does now, but not so much then.
The soldier in the video, I will never ridicule him or question his patriotism as a hero and what he gave up for our country.
> I am so tired of people who criticize the war being labeled as unpatriotic.
There’s a difference between a private citizen criticizing the war and Presidential candidate. The criticism itself is, after all, just an exercise of free speech. However, it becomes a much more dangerous thing when a public elected official and Presidential candidate starts harshly criticizing the war as whole. It provides psychological aid to the enemy by providing fuel to the hope that if they push hard enough, America will fold, as we did in Mogadishu. Fortunately, there’s not much hope for that left as the Surge has worked exceedingly well, but Obama’s criticism extends far back into the period of doubt where Americans and Iraqis were at far higher risk of attack.
Furthermore, I fully support the discussion of plans on what should be done moving forward, but criticizing an operational effort takes the focus away from that very discussion. This is another place where Obama deserves the criticism himself. Obama recently admitted the surge strategy has worked “better than our wildest dreams” and then immediately followed it with criticism of the Iraqi people. How can such antagonism help? Why not focus on using that success as a way to encourage and also focus on his policy for seeking an exit strategy? There are ways to have that discussion without being so negative.
Wouldn’t it be better to focus on and encourage the positive outcomes? I think so. Obama’s criticism or Iraqis during the interview I just mentioned flew in the face of recent news that the American military has turned over the Anwar province over to the Iraqi’s because the Iraqi’s have been taking more responsibility. We need a President who is willing to consider the good and not just focus on the bad.
“There’s a difference between a private citizen criticizing the war and Presidential candidate. The criticism itself is, after all, just an exercise of free speech. However, it becomes a much more dangerous thing when a public elected official and Presidential candidate starts harshly criticizing the war as whole.”
Of course there is, but I have also heard elected officials criticize people and label them as unamerican and unpatriotic if we didn’t support this war gung-ho 100%. The point of my original response was that I don’t think this video is speaking to just Obama, but meant to speak to anyone who questions the war, and goes out of its way to make them feel unpatriotic. I fully feel that while we move forward, anyone has every right to question the past so we do not repeat mistakes from it. Just because its working well now doesn’t mean that it always did, and we have made big mistakes in planning this war and everything. We should still consider the past when looking to the future no matter what.
Joe Cook is a true American who knows freedom is not free. Those people who are invested in losing this war will find out how wrong it is to oppose it if the Americans quit and go home. There are thousands of Iraq’s men fighting with the Americans since day one.
Well, if you want to read that implication into the video, I can’t stop you. I didn’t hear it that way.
“I have also heard elected officials criticize people and label them as unamerican and unpatriotic if we didn’t support this war gung-ho 100%.”
Perhaps you have, but I have not or if I have I wrote the off the very few I have heard as idiots not worthy of remembrance. The fact is that many of the comments that have been interpreted this way were comments saying only what I have said: It is not unpatriotic to criticize how the war is being waged (nor is it particularly patriotic, it’s just speech). Yet, it is unpatriotic to use public influence to place our fighting men and women at risk, particularly if doing so is primarily for personal, political gain.
Trying to insinuate that your statement is somehow a mainstream position of conservatives or Republicans is a straw man. Most of us would not agree with that statement. We want very much to protect the right to dissent, which is the same reason why we protect gun rights. Yet, we also wish to protect the troops in harms way, which means there’s a certain amount of responsibility required when expressing disagreement. That’s what we believe.
Of course you wouldn’t hear the same things and innendos that I do because if you have taken a pro-war stance, then you will hear it differently since most of the stuff and comments I am referring to support the pro-Iraq War position. I didn’t try and insinuate that what I thought was a mainstream postion of anyone. Its just how I hear it personally. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. What may sound one way to one person may sound completely different to another, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that either side is wrong — its just how its interpreted.
I think that this thread has shown, at least to me, that even though I am in a miniority as far as my views on the war and its leading up to it, that we are all Americans, and freedom of opinion and freedom of choice is what makes this country great. As much as I disagree with some people on here, I completely respect everyone’s viewpoints and I hope mine are as well. In the end, we all love our country and want what is best for it.
Jeremy,
I appreciate your service to our country and your willingness to sacrifice for its’ people. What some do not realize, is that because you and others are willing to make those sacrifices and are willing to serve they can stay over here in America where it is safe and say whatever they want to and criticize the way things are done. Personally, it does not matter to me if one agrees or disagrees with the war, however, I believe when our troops see Americans protesting and criticizing and bashing the war, that has to feel personal to them. I want you to know there are those of us who truly do apppreciate and honor our troops and would never consider doing any war bashing just out of respect for them. You know another thing I have realized lately, the office of the President is not respected anymore. It doesn’t matter if you are democrat or republican, the office of President, be it man or women that holds that position, derserves respect. I think that is one of the things I am most disappointed in, we have seemed to have lost our respect for our elders, and for those in authority over us. I know sometmes it doesn;t seem like the person deserves respect but we should still give it. THank you again for your service, and it is true, freedom does come with a price. If we quit going and fighting for our freedom at some point they will be over here in America taking our freedom away from us.
I can understand how people on the front line are committed to the mission and that is a good thing. What I would like to know is whether you believe in the Powell Doctrine? This doctrine states that in order for the United States to enter into a foreign conflict where we spill precious blood and spend the treasure of our nation, the following questions should be asked:
1. Is a vital national security interest threatened?
2. Do we have a clear attainable objective?
3. Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
4. Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
5. Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
6. Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
7. Is the action supported by the American people?
8. Do we have genuine broad international support?
The answer to everyone of these questions is NO, with the exception of #7 … after the attacks on 9-11, most Americans were so angry that they wanted to do something – anything. Because of the failure of so many other points of this doctrine and the misleading statements by the politicians that started this war, the answer to question 7 has changed from yes to no.
I would also ask you to share your opinion on when the U.S. Military should be used for nation-building and defending the rights of others. Your arguments that this war was not a mistake seem to be based on the benefits to the Iraqi people. What about the costs and benefits to the American people? Certainly the Iraqis suffered under Saddam. But are not people suffering in Darfur, Sudan and a dozen other countries to an even greater degree? Do we have a responsibility to invade those countries and rescue those people? Why was Iraq chosen to be invaded?
Let’s feel with the heart, but think with the head.
1.2 millions Iraqis have died in this war since the invasion. I can assure you that they are not better off now by any means. Their country is ruined and more fractured just because Bush had a personal vendetta against Saddam. I honor your personal sacrifice, but honestly freedom also means to question your government orders when they ask our brave soldiers to go kill and die for some cause.
Videos like this curdle my blood. I am so tired of people who criticize the war being labeled as unpatriotic. It was not our business to go into Iraq in the first place, under false and misleading/faulty intellligence, while taking our eye off of Bin Laden, who was supposed to be our real goal. I have every right and freedom to criticize the management and mismanagement of a misguided war, but that doesn’t mean I don’t support our troops, who voluntarily signed up for the war in the first place.
This video is not about why we went to war. It’s about the good we’ve done since we’ve been there. Why can’t people see that?
[...] Go to Jeremy E. Serber & Friends [...]
This video is not about the good we’ve done there. I will be the first to admit that after years of violence and bloodshed, things seem to be turning around and there have been a lot of great moments for our country and for theirs in recent times.
But this is clearly a video to make anyone who has questioned this war feel unpatriotic, like we don’t support the troops or mourn our own loss of life there. I mean come on, the guy even says if you consider the war a “mistake” then you disrespect all who fought and died — his comments are directed at Obama, but obviously meant for anyone who is watching the video as well. I respect everyone who made the decision to go over there and fight for us for whatever reason they saw fit, but I will not be called unamerican because I question the motives of why we were there in the first place.
I see what you’re saying, but do you honestly believe President Bush had some kind of evil intentions for going to war in Iraq?
No I don’t think Bush had evil intentions, but I do think we were so anxious to do *something* after 9/11 that we focused all of our energies on the wrong target. And that doesn’t mean we can’t question the decisions and intelligence of going in there. And questioning it doesn’t make one unamerican, I think it makes us very American because that shows we care about our military forces and don’t want to see them put forth in a war that possibly shouldn’t have been started for the reasons it was. I remember you even saying at one time that you would question the reasoning for us going in there the way we did with no real exit plans and whatnot.
Granted, we can’t do anything about it now, and we all need to determine the best strategy from here on out. But that doesn’t mean we can’t learn from the past and not be put in a situation like this again.
We can learn from our mistakes but do you believe pulling out of Iraq now is going do more good than not? Would pulling out be learning from our mistakes?
Well, that’s what can be debated. I think a timed, responsible withdrawl would be in our best interests, especially in light of the violence level going down.
But that is part of the questioning it in the first place, and learning from the past. Had we had better intelligence, better planning, situations like this would be less likely to happen, forcing us into a basically no-win stance. We can stay there forever while their government continues to flounder, or we can begin to pull out, not achieving what became our goal to leave them with a functioning government and stability.
But back to the original point, I will never question the heart of a soldier who decided to put his life on the line to fight for our country. However, I will question the decisions of the government and our leadership to begin this war in the first place without better planning. I mean, if you remember, we were so arrogant going in there, and we were taken by surprise by the resistance against us. So there’s a good chance a lot of these soldiers went over there not only thinking that it would be close to a cakewalk (“Marched down the street as liberators”), but also thought it wouldn’t last nearly as long as it has, as well as thinking Al Queda had a definate link to Iraq… which of course it does now, but not so much then.
The soldier in the video, I will never ridicule him or question his patriotism as a hero and what he gave up for our country.
And i did just want to reiterate that I DO support and love our troops. They are some of the bravest people our country has to offer.
Benjamin Franklin once said, “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
> I am so tired of people who criticize the war being labeled as unpatriotic.
There’s a difference between a private citizen criticizing the war and Presidential candidate. The criticism itself is, after all, just an exercise of free speech. However, it becomes a much more dangerous thing when a public elected official and Presidential candidate starts harshly criticizing the war as whole. It provides psychological aid to the enemy by providing fuel to the hope that if they push hard enough, America will fold, as we did in Mogadishu. Fortunately, there’s not much hope for that left as the Surge has worked exceedingly well, but Obama’s criticism extends far back into the period of doubt where Americans and Iraqis were at far higher risk of attack.
Furthermore, I fully support the discussion of plans on what should be done moving forward, but criticizing an operational effort takes the focus away from that very discussion. This is another place where Obama deserves the criticism himself. Obama recently admitted the surge strategy has worked “better than our wildest dreams” and then immediately followed it with criticism of the Iraqi people. How can such antagonism help? Why not focus on using that success as a way to encourage and also focus on his policy for seeking an exit strategy? There are ways to have that discussion without being so negative.
Wouldn’t it be better to focus on and encourage the positive outcomes? I think so. Obama’s criticism or Iraqis during the interview I just mentioned flew in the face of recent news that the American military has turned over the Anwar province over to the Iraqi’s because the Iraqi’s have been taking more responsibility. We need a President who is willing to consider the good and not just focus on the bad.
“There’s a difference between a private citizen criticizing the war and Presidential candidate. The criticism itself is, after all, just an exercise of free speech. However, it becomes a much more dangerous thing when a public elected official and Presidential candidate starts harshly criticizing the war as whole.”
Of course there is, but I have also heard elected officials criticize people and label them as unamerican and unpatriotic if we didn’t support this war gung-ho 100%. The point of my original response was that I don’t think this video is speaking to just Obama, but meant to speak to anyone who questions the war, and goes out of its way to make them feel unpatriotic. I fully feel that while we move forward, anyone has every right to question the past so we do not repeat mistakes from it. Just because its working well now doesn’t mean that it always did, and we have made big mistakes in planning this war and everything. We should still consider the past when looking to the future no matter what.
Joe Cook is a true American who knows freedom is not free. Those people who are invested in losing this war will find out how wrong it is to oppose it if the Americans quit and go home. There are thousands of Iraq’s men fighting with the Americans since day one.
Well, if you want to read that implication into the video, I can’t stop you. I didn’t hear it that way.
“I have also heard elected officials criticize people and label them as unamerican and unpatriotic if we didn’t support this war gung-ho 100%.”
Perhaps you have, but I have not or if I have I wrote the off the very few I have heard as idiots not worthy of remembrance. The fact is that many of the comments that have been interpreted this way were comments saying only what I have said: It is not unpatriotic to criticize how the war is being waged (nor is it particularly patriotic, it’s just speech). Yet, it is unpatriotic to use public influence to place our fighting men and women at risk, particularly if doing so is primarily for personal, political gain.
Trying to insinuate that your statement is somehow a mainstream position of conservatives or Republicans is a straw man. Most of us would not agree with that statement. We want very much to protect the right to dissent, which is the same reason why we protect gun rights. Yet, we also wish to protect the troops in harms way, which means there’s a certain amount of responsibility required when expressing disagreement. That’s what we believe.
Of course you wouldn’t hear the same things and innendos that I do because if you have taken a pro-war stance, then you will hear it differently since most of the stuff and comments I am referring to support the pro-Iraq War position. I didn’t try and insinuate that what I thought was a mainstream postion of anyone. Its just how I hear it personally. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. What may sound one way to one person may sound completely different to another, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that either side is wrong — its just how its interpreted.
I think that this thread has shown, at least to me, that even though I am in a miniority as far as my views on the war and its leading up to it, that we are all Americans, and freedom of opinion and freedom of choice is what makes this country great. As much as I disagree with some people on here, I completely respect everyone’s viewpoints and I hope mine are as well. In the end, we all love our country and want what is best for it.
Jeremy,
I appreciate your service to our country and your willingness to sacrifice for its’ people. What some do not realize, is that because you and others are willing to make those sacrifices and are willing to serve they can stay over here in America where it is safe and say whatever they want to and criticize the way things are done. Personally, it does not matter to me if one agrees or disagrees with the war, however, I believe when our troops see Americans protesting and criticizing and bashing the war, that has to feel personal to them. I want you to know there are those of us who truly do apppreciate and honor our troops and would never consider doing any war bashing just out of respect for them. You know another thing I have realized lately, the office of the President is not respected anymore. It doesn’t matter if you are democrat or republican, the office of President, be it man or women that holds that position, derserves respect. I think that is one of the things I am most disappointed in, we have seemed to have lost our respect for our elders, and for those in authority over us. I know sometmes it doesn;t seem like the person deserves respect but we should still give it. THank you again for your service, and it is true, freedom does come with a price. If we quit going and fighting for our freedom at some point they will be over here in America taking our freedom away from us.
I can understand how people on the front line are committed to the mission and that is a good thing. What I would like to know is whether you believe in the Powell Doctrine? This doctrine states that in order for the United States to enter into a foreign conflict where we spill precious blood and spend the treasure of our nation, the following questions should be asked:
1. Is a vital national security interest threatened?
2. Do we have a clear attainable objective?
3. Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
4. Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
5. Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
6. Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
7. Is the action supported by the American people?
8. Do we have genuine broad international support?
The answer to everyone of these questions is NO, with the exception of #7 … after the attacks on 9-11, most Americans were so angry that they wanted to do something – anything. Because of the failure of so many other points of this doctrine and the misleading statements by the politicians that started this war, the answer to question 7 has changed from yes to no.
I would also ask you to share your opinion on when the U.S. Military should be used for nation-building and defending the rights of others. Your arguments that this war was not a mistake seem to be based on the benefits to the Iraqi people. What about the costs and benefits to the American people? Certainly the Iraqis suffered under Saddam. But are not people suffering in Darfur, Sudan and a dozen other countries to an even greater degree? Do we have a responsibility to invade those countries and rescue those people? Why was Iraq chosen to be invaded?
Let’s feel with the heart, but think with the head.
President Bush, the Iraq War, and a Reasonable Position
1.2 millions Iraqis have died in this war since the invasion. I can assure you that they are not better off now by any means. Their country is ruined and more fractured just because Bush had a personal vendetta against Saddam. I honor your personal sacrifice, but honestly freedom also means to question your government orders when they ask our brave soldiers to go kill and die for some cause.